trans_channel | [Locked to Magical, backdated to before mission start]

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[Locked to Magical, backdated to before mission start]

I'm uncertain of the ethics of this, but I wanted to ask. At the moment the clone that crew-member Mei-Xing brought on board is still in Medical, living on a respirator with no chance of waking up.

My understanding of her file is that her comatose state was caused by damage done early in her development, otherwise she would have been perfectly normal. With the clock on board, we have a chance to reverse that, though I imagine it would leave her an infant. Which...I'm uncertain if that would be a bad thing. She would require a caretaker, but she could be normal. She could have a chance for a childhood and a life beyond what was meant for her.

I think we have a chance to help her, to give a patient with no chance a chance and I would like your advice on it. As a nurse I've seen a lot of good people die because we didn't have the technology to help them. I would like your opinions on it. I'm afraid I don't know much about magic, though I've been observing the effects of the clock first hand. Would this work? Do you think it would be beneficial to try?

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Bringing in a useless creature that we will have to support and watch over while in the midst of a war for our survival?

That seems unwise.

Unwise? It's not a question of wisdom, it's a question of kindness. We have other children on the ship, it wouldn't be a drain on your resources. I would be more than willing to look after her.

Kindness does not win wars. You are proposing bringing aboard a useless asset, one which will be unable to fight for itself or look after itself in the even of a catastrophic failure of the ship's system or should we come under attack. I do not object based on the strain of my own personal resources, after all. It's a question of this new "crew-member" ultimately being less useful for our war effort.

She would be a child, at the moment she can only sleep. You are aruging against it based on tactics? Why? Not everyone on the ship is meant to be involved in the war effort.

She can only sleep because she does not possess a true mind. She is not a person; not now, at any rate.

We are all involved in the war effort, whether we like it or not. This is war to the hilt, for our very survival. I see no advantage to be gained from bringing an infant into it.

You asked for opinions; you have received mine. Ultimately, I will not be the one making this choice, however.

She is a person. She is a damaged person, but she is a person. That has never been in doubt. This was done to her to keep her from living her own life. They made her a thing to be used, we now have a chance to fix that. That chance is one that most never have, and we have it. She is a person, and we have a chance to help her.

Does she have a mind now? Is someone who is brain dead still a person? Can they think? Reason? Live?

No. They cannot. She cannot. Whatever happened to her on her own world is beyond our concern now. It is not our duty to rectify every wrong in the universe.

No, it's not. But when we have a chance to right a wrong we should. I am not asking the crew to undo every moral wrong done in the universe, I am asking magical for their help in undoing this one. To show this crew-member a kindness that she has been unable to receive before this.

I'm a nurse. I have treated coma patients, the inability to think does not justify the unwillingness to help. She is a person, and she needs our help, and we can grant it. She is alive, she can hear us. She deserves this chance.

Nothing I say will persuade you and it is not my decision. Do as you will; just know that I counsel against it.

The situation is not simply so one-sided. The urge to protect and defend children has the potential to dramatically amplify the morale and effectiveness of the crew. It is easier to fight for a concrete than an abstract, even if the abstract is as overwhelming as 'the fate of the multiverse'. In addition, evidence that a child can successfully be raised on the ship might not only contribute to morale directly, but also might allow us to conduct research on the development of souls (or what the ship terms avia) within the Bleed, possibly allowing us to improve their stability and resulting therefore in less repodding or possibly the removal of childbearing restrictions.

This isn't to say the benefits outweigh the downsides; I don't know where the weight lies on it. I only mean to point out that advantages do exist.

This is, of course, setting aside the morality of the choices.

I do not believe we should be attempting to raise children in this environment. This is war for survival. Even the children the ship has chosen to release have some degree of self-preservation and an ability to handle themselves - this would be an infant, if they succeed.

I think it is an unnecessary and frivolous request. I will allow that there are possibilities for the improvement of morale involved, but I think the necessity of having to devote at least one able-bodied crew-member to watch over the child - more, in all likelihood, considering the necessity for constant monitoring - detracts from that potential.

We can't attempt to consider this in terms of morality. I believe that everyone has lengths to which they will not go to win this war, and that some may be more extreme in their viewpoints than others.

On the idea of losing one or more crew-members to the duty of child-rearing, though, I would argue that the loss is not as substantial as you believe. On the one hand, not all crewmembers perform a duty directly dealing with the ongoing war at all times except sleeping, and this leisure is necessary for the sake of everyone's sanity. If one or more crewmembers choose to spend their leisure in rearing a child instead of some other activity, then I don't feel we've lost more than we've gained.

On the other hand, given the vast resources of the ship, Engineering, and Magical departments, we could almost certainly come up with labor-saving aids for the process.

While I'm not in favor of this request for other reasons, I will add that a victory or even a final reckoning in this war could be a long time off. Although my understanding is that you are of a long-lived race, it may become necessary for a second generation of humans to take up where their parents left off in order to see the task completed.

I will concede on that point, although I still do not believe it is wise to attempt such now. Especially with regards to this particular artifact, which seems to have a far more diverse and far-reaching effect than a single person.

Considering the inability to breed while aboard, I doubt any such second-generation can actually come about, in any case.

The problem with this idea is that it appears the only way we can reverse the effects of the clock for the crew at large is its wholesale destruction; as a consequence we will have no control over the revocation of its regressions. This leaves two likely possibilities -- either whatever we do to the clone as an infant will be undone, or it will not be undone, but the restoration of the clone's full timeline will result in...

What comes immediately to mind is that the timeline will reassert itself unchanged in all factors but one, resulting in her enduring the entire existence of her life while aware. Nightmarish. And any further changes to the timeline could result in a paradoxical cascade (temporal storm) which could potentially damage the timestream of anyone associated with this ship as well as the ship's itself.

However, this does not mean a solution which does not rely on the clock cannot be found. I admit I know relatively little about this situation, so after an adequate resolution to the clock problem I would gladly consult on this.

Even if there's the slightest chance of it working, shouldn't it be attempted? I mean, even if it reverts, the chance to do something for her...anything, really. Right now we are simply watching and waiting for her to die. We intend to reverse it for the rest of the crew, and we will. I have to believe that. But in this...she has nothing to regain. No life to reclaim of her own.

By my reasoning, she deserves that chance, however unlikely.

I really do hate to disagree with your argument. I can only say that to the extent I have studied the manipulation of the timestream, I strongly believe this approach would have an unacceptably high chance of causing substantial harm to many other people. If it was only you and I, I don't think we would hesitate, but we can't put other people at unwilling or unknowing risk. Especially since that includes people within the pods, who we can't ask or warn.

I'm a time traveler, so...I sort of understand what you're saying. But I'm uncertain how making her a baby would interfere with the time stream, the ship seems to be suffering no ill-effects from the de-aging of our current crew members.

She isn't someone who is even impacting anything, from her creation she was a thing meant to be used. This will give her a chance to be a person, to be born, and have a chance for everything she was denied before.

Making her a baby and then either healing her affliction or ensuring it does not come to pass would not in and of itself cause any damage.

The problem is that we have no way to prevent her timeline reasserting itself along with everyone else's when we at least destroy the clock.

When it does, three options are likely. One, the damage recurs and nothing changes. Two, the damage does not recur but all other things remain identical, which condemns her to have lived her entire life sentient and aware of her situation. Third, the damage does not recur and as a consequence her timeline changes dramatically. This would almost certainly change Mei-Xing's, and in turn that would change those of anyone who'd come in contact with her on the ship.

I am aware of the moral imperative to aid her in our current situation. I am very willing to help do that. But the risk of harm to other people on the ship is what turns me away from this option. If we can find a way to selectively maintain the effect of the Clock after its destruction, then I'll reconsider my position.

I think I know of a way to isolate her time, if that's needed. I'd need to speak to the Doctor about it for permission, but we could do it.

Well. Unlike the others, I don't have any objections, so long as you understand the risk you could personally be taking. Don't allow yourself to get too set on the idea of taking the baby in. Yes, it's good to plan for it, but...well, they do have a point. There's a possibility that her timeline will revert to normal afterward.

In which case, the crew hasn't really lost anything. But you should be aware so you don't get hurt.

That said. Will there be enough time for her to revert fully to the point where the damage occurred?

I'm aware, but thank you. I'm a nurse, my primary objective is to help my patient as best I can. Not all treatments work, and this one may not. But it might, and it's currently the best solution I have to an otherwise unfixable medical condition.

As she was aged quickly, I think it's quite likely. My real concern is getting her to stop.

I figured you probably did, but it was worth pointing out.

Well, here's hoping for your sake. And for hers.

Thank you, I appreciate your concern.

I think when evoking magic, all you can do is close your eyes and pray, right?

I may not much about the situation, but if there is anything I can do to assist let me know. To that end, I would like to know more. Is the damage more mental or physical?

The damage is mental, and not so much damage as someone prevented key parts of her brain from forming during development. Essentially, her brain never activated. Some of the connections just never formed, she was never allowed a childhood or any of the normal stages. Her brain is a blank slate, like an infant's. Only nothing was ever allowed to form.

Aibghalien's points aren't incorrect... but at the same time, I think this is something worthy of our time while we have the tools. Just make sure we understand any potential consequences and have a plan to deal with them.

Thank you. You think the option is worth exploring?

I understand, Ma'am. If this works she'll be a child, a baby. And if it doesn't...well, I don't think there is anyone who should be forgotten about because they haven't got a voice. Thank you for your support.

Edited 2011-06-05 03:57 (UTC)

I agree. If she can't speak for her rights, then someone needs to speak for her.

Of course it's worth a try. If we don't try, we'll never know. Good luck.

Yes ma'am, that is our job.

Thank you, do you have any suggestion for when?

...the sooner the better, I'd think. Just because we're trying to figure out how to restore everyone affected by the Clock, and I don't know how much longer it'll work for.

I can make myself available tonight, if that would work for you.

All right, I'll be there.

Message me when you're ready, Ma'am.

[ooc: Do you want to thread it out or not?]

All right, I will.

(ooc: Can we handwave? I would be totally lost on the tech side of things XD)

Just throwing my two cents in since I am part of Magical.

Yes we should try. But that's just me. I'll even volunteer to take care of her. Better me than Ben. Who also wants to try now that he's reading over my shoulder.

Thank you for your support. It seems she will have no end of offers for guardianship.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[Locked to Magical, backdated to before mission start]

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/cheerfully assumes this to be slightly before Abby got himself in trouble

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